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000 12 fretter brace question (pic)
http://www-.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10102&t=10397		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  LarryH [ Mon Jan 15, 2007 11:37 am ]
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I'm just beginning to layout the braces on my 000 12 fretter and cannot seem to visualize the brace layout. It seems with the sound hole so low and the upper bout so small that in order to get any breathing room below the bridge plate for tone bars (which I won't use, I'll use a fan system instead) the angle have to be weird or the braces will meet the guitars edge right at the waist.

Is bracing a 12 fretter different in this regard and if so how?

Thanks very much

I hope you can make out the outline of the guitar in the pic.

Author:  James W B [ Mon Jan 15, 2007 11:42 am ]
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Hey Larry,I am also building a 000 12 fret .John hall from Blues Creek sent me a plan and explained the bracing set up for me . I`m sure he can help you.
                        James
Author:  JJ Donohue [ Mon Jan 15, 2007 11:50 am ]
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Ditto what James said!
Author:  LarryH [ Mon Jan 15, 2007 12:00 pm ]
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Thanks you guys. I have a mold on order from John and just e-mailed him.

But how about in the mean time could you check your 12 fretter plans and tell me a couple of things? Like where the braces meet the waist? At the waist, above the waist, a little bit? A lot?

How much clearance between the sound hole tangent and the X braces?

Are the X-braces 90 degrees? Less? More?

Does the layout in the pic look close?

If I get the X right I'll fake the rest.

Thanks

Larry
Author:  James W B [ Mon Jan 15, 2007 12:02 pm ]
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After talking with John it will all make sense.
                        James
Author:  Rod True [ Mon Jan 15, 2007 12:02 pm ]
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I've not built a 000 12 fret but that sound hole sure looks low on the body to me. You still have lots of room to bring the body outline down if that would help.

But if you want the sound hole there, I can't help you.
Author:  LarryH [ Mon Jan 15, 2007 12:17 pm ]
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[QUOTE=Rod True] I've not built a 000 12 fret but that sound hole sure looks low on the body to me. You still have lots of room to bring the body outline down if that would help.

But if you want the sound hole there, I can't help you.[/QUOTE]

Thanks Rod,

I'm not wed to any position of much of anything as I am a very new builder. I own a Martin 000 12 fret and put the sound hole in the same location as the Martin and it seems to really pinch the area in the lower bout. It seems the sound hole pretty much has to go 8 frets down (about 5 1/8") from the top of the body though being a 12 fretter and all.

Again it seems that with the hole so low the X will meet the body very near the waist and leave a smallish area in the lower bout.
Author:  JJ Donohue [ Mon Jan 15, 2007 1:04 pm ]
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With all due respect, Larry...what's your hurry? Take a breath and get a set of plans. If you're a new builder...all the more important to do this more methodically.
Author:  LarryH [ Mon Jan 15, 2007 1:10 pm ]
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Not in that big a hurry - just curious.

And...just talked to John at Blues Creek who was generous enough to give me his phone number and a primer on bracing 101. Extremely generous of him, as you all know so well.

I'll post a pic when the bracing gets figured out.

Thanks for the help
Author:  crazymanmichael [ Mon Jan 15, 2007 3:01 pm ]
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larry, if you haven't got one, draw a plan on paper. first locate your saddle based on scale length and compensation, then your bridge location based on the saddle, and locate your bridge plate. then start thinking about your bracing. once you have a plan, transfer it to the inside surface of your top.

till you do this you are just whistling in the wind.
Author:  Hank Mauel [ Tue Jan 16, 2007 6:12 am ]
Post subject: 
[QUOTE=LarryH] I'm just beginning to layout the braces on my 000 12 fretter and cannot seem to visualize the brace layout. It seems with the sound hole so low and the upper bout so small that in order to get any breathing room below the bridge plate for tone bars (which I won't use, I'll use a fan system instead) the angle have to be weird or the braces will meet the guitars edge right at the waist.

Is bracing a 12 fretter different in this regard and if so how?

Thanks very much

I hope you can make out the outline of the guitar in the pic.

[/QUOTE]

Larry...
As I sit here posting, my personal 000-12, circa 1999, sits beside me for reference,

Your brace layout looks fine. My upper leg X braces exit the top just slightly above a line drawn across the top of the soundhole...yours look to be in the same relationship.

My guitar has a 90 degree X and is "advanced, so the upper X brace legs sit only about 1/8 to 316" in from the edge of the soundhole.
Given this geometry, your lower X brace legs will exit the edge of the top just slightly below the widest part of the lower bout...again yours appear to be in the ballpark.

FYI... Iuse a single wing brace off the lower X brace legs, just below the corners of the bridge. Also, I used only one tone bar on this instrument. As time went on, I did open my X up to about 94 degrees...this brought the upper X brace legs down a bit and raised the lower legs up to just slightly ABOVE the widest part of the lower bout. Opened up the tops even more than my personal unit, with more fullness and overtones...for you lush fingerpickers.

Hope that helps.

Hank
Author:  TonyKarol [ Tue Jan 16, 2007 11:10 am ]
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To me the soundhole placement looks fine - martins are 12 fret 24.9 scale with 20 frets, so the FB ends about the 21st or so - thats where the edge of a 3.5 (0) or 3 3/4 (00) soundhole would be. I use a 98 degree X, that looks to be a bunch less than 90 (at the soundhole). I place the X such that it exits the wings on the bottom edge, middle, not out the back corner. Bridge is 6 inches long.
Author:  LarryH [ Tue Jan 16, 2007 3:08 pm ]
Post subject: 
[QUOTE=Hank Mauel]
Larry...
As I sit here posting, my personal 000-12, circa 1999, sits beside me for reference,

Your brace layout looks fine. My upper leg X braces exit the top just slightly above a line drawn across the top of the soundhole...yours look to be in the same relationship.

My guitar has a 90 degree X and is "advanced, so the upper X brace legs sit only about 1/8 to 316" in from the edge of the soundhole.
Given this geometry, your lower X brace legs will exit the edge of the top just slightly below the widest part of the lower bout...again yours appear to be in the ballpark.

FYI... Iuse a single wing brace off the lower X brace legs, just below the corners of the bridge. Also, I used only one tone bar on this instrument. As time went on, I did open my X up to about 94 degrees...this brought the upper X brace legs down a bit and raised the lower legs up to just slightly ABOVE the widest part of the lower bout. Opened up the tops even more than my personal unit, with more fullness and overtones...for you lush fingerpickers.

Hope that helps.

Hank
[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=TonyKarol] To me the soundhole placement looks fine - martins are 12 fret 24.9 scale with 20 frets, so the FB ends about the 21st or so - thats where the edge of a 3.5 (0) or 3 3/4 (00) soundhole would be. I use a 98 degree X, that looks to be a bunch less than 90 (at the soundhole). I place the X such that it exits the wings on the bottom edge, middle, not out the back corner. Bridge is 6 inches long. [/QUOTE]

Thanks so very much Hank, Tony for the effort and information, it will help me immensely in figuring out the ultimate brace placement.

And as always a huge shout out to John at Blues Creek for his help.

Larry
Author:  LarryH [ Tue Jan 16, 2007 3:17 pm ]
Post subject: 
[QUOTE=TonyKarol] To me the soundhole placement looks fine - martins are 12 fret 24.9 scale with 20 frets, so the FB ends about the 21st or so - thats where the edge of a 3.5 (0) or 3 3/4 (00) soundhole would be. I use a 98 degree X, that looks to be a bunch less than 90 (at the soundhole).[/quote]

Yeah John reckoned around 95 degrees would be OK and I will open the angle a bit for sure.

[quote]I place the X such that it exits the wings on the bottom edge, middle, not out the back corner. Bridge is 6 inches long. [/QUOTE]

Sorry I don't understand the terminology. ..."Wings on the bottom edge, middle, not out the back corner." Wings are what/where? Do they have a back corner?

Thanks
Author:  TonyKarol [ Wed Jan 17, 2007 12:19 am ]
Post subject: 
Wings are the outer thinner ends of the bridge .. they need to sit on top of the X brace in your pattern to couple to the top and the X. So I like my bridge to sit on the X such that the X crosses and exits the wings of the bridge on the bottom edge of the bridge wing. Some make the bracing pattern such that the X will exit the bridge area out the back corner of the bridge wing.
If you take a look at the CAD bracing drawing that Michael Payne posted in the thread on the peak of an arched radiused top, you will see what I mean.
Author:  LarryH [ Wed Jan 17, 2007 3:05 am ]
Post subject: 
[QUOTE=TonyKarol] Wings are the outer thinner ends of the bridge .. they need to sit on top of the X brace in your pattern to couple to the top and the X. So I like my bridge to sit on the X such that the X crosses and exits the wings of the bridge on the bottom edge of the bridge wing. Some make the bracing pattern such that the X will exit the bridge area out the back corner of the bridge wing.
If you take a look at the CAD bracing drawing that Michael Payne posted in the thread on the peak of an arched radiused top, you will see what I mean.[/QUOTE]

Thanks, that's pretty clear. Could not find the the thread you referred to however.

Thanks again
Author:  JJ Donohue [ Wed Jan 17, 2007 4:29 am ]
Post subject: 
Larry...The following are some dimensions I took from the StewMac 000-12 fret plans...25.4" scale.

1) X-Brace...The intersection is 10.25" from the outside of the neck block. The spread is 96 degrees.

2) Soundhole...The SH is 3.88" dia. The distance from the edge of the SH to the X-intersection is 1.5"

3) Bridgeplate...Located 3.25" from the edge of the SH.

4) Tone bars...there are two

5) Finger braces...there are two but I've only used 1 per side.
Author:  TonyKarol [ Wed Jan 17, 2007 11:13 am ]
Post subject: 
Actually now that i think about it, Michaels drawing was from a side perspective - you couldnt see where the X and bridge intersected on the top .... minor brain fart    .
Author:  LarryH [ Wed Jan 17, 2007 11:57 am ]
Post subject: 
[QUOTE=JJ Donohue] Larry...The following are some dimensions I took from the StewMac 000-12 fret plans...25.4" scale.

1) X-Brace...The intersection is 10.25" from the outside of the neck block. The spread is 96 degrees.

2) Soundhole...The SH is 3.88" dia. The distance from the edge of the SH to the X-intersection is 1.5"

3) Bridgeplate...Located 3.25" from the edge of the SH.

4) Tone bars...there are two

5) Finger braces...there are two but I've only used 1 per side. [/QUOTE]

Thanks JJ very helpful. I'll post what I finally come up with.

Larry
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